Curse

JR · Sep 25, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Geez this build is rampant right now. I'm not saying that Hypo's not broken (it is) but people need to get a brain. Running a BL monk with both Revealed and Inspired Hex (which I do often anyway), I could hold off three frag spikers. Quick removal of 1 hex and there's no DW from Accumulated Pain, a fast Mend Condition on the first condition and there's no Virulence. With that and hitting the Blessed Light trifecta way more often than usual, it's pretty easy to monk against this build.

Sounds like you were facing pretty terrible teams running it.

romO · Sep 25, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

This sounds like the old fragility. A single fragility spike could take down any target over the course of a few seconds. Decent for flagstand pressure, although very easy to shut down and unreliable, so no one really used it there, and great for base ganking, as it should be. Fragility was my favorite solo build back in the day, and personally, I am very happy that it's back, even though it's not as powerful as back then. In terms of it being 'bugged', it simply works the same way that sb/ri does. There is no distinction between new hexes/conditions and the reapplication of hexes/conditions. However, as the game mechanics work, if the same conditions or hexes are going to be reapplied, it counts them as starting all over again, triggering the damage from frag and sb. Doesn't sound like a bug.

suiraCLAW · Sep 25, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

IMO, the combination of 1 degen necromancer (with another copy of hypochondria) combined with such a fragility mesmer is almost unstoppable (if both know what they're doing) thus it's certainly overpowerd.

JR · Sep 25, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

This sounds like the old fragility. A single fragility spike could take down any target over the course of a few seconds. Decent for flagstand pressure, although very easy to shut down and unreliable, so no one really used it there, and great for base ganking, as it should be. Fragility was my favorite solo build back in the day, and personally, I am very happy that it's back, even though it's not as powerful as back then. In terms of it being 'bugged', it simply works the same way that sb/ri does. There is no distinction between new hexes/conditions and the reapplication of hexes/conditions. However, as the game mechanics work, if the same conditions or hexes are going to be reapplied, it counts them as starting all over again, triggering the damage from frag and sb. Doesn't sound like a bug.

It sounds like you never saw this run decently, either. We ran it in tombs once over the weekend. God knows I rarely do tombs, but I was bored and it sounded like fun.

Six pure Healing or Prot Monks, one Virulence/Frag Mesmer, one spirit Ranger with Apply and Savage shot. We could perform perfect uninfusable spikes.

The power behind it is that those six monks just run a single spell, Hypochondria, with a 5 energy cost, 1 second cast time, 10 second cool down. It requires no spec, and is conveniently in a Mesmer skill. As such you basicly have six spikers who can do absolutely anything you want them to between spikes, at the cost of one skill slot and their secondary profession.

Bugeater · Sep 25, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Sounds like you were facing pretty terrible teams running it.

I think you're right about that since the teams we faced had 2-5 Me/N each pretty much doing their own thing trying to spike a different target (or sometimes the same target). We never faced an organized team that had each member with Hypo adding 120+ damage to the spike. I can see how that could be a ridiculous spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

In terms of it being 'bugged', it simply works the same way that sb/ri does.

Not really. Frag/Hypo is more powerful because it re-applies the whole stack of conditions, each doing damage on removal and re-application. Where SB/RI reapplied one hex with each new hex added to the stack, doing 62 damage per hex applied. Hypo does twice the damage with similar specs and 3 conditions. If you can get a couple more conditions to stick or another /Me to pack Hypo then you're just multiplying your damage.

Sinborn · Sep 25, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Looking beyond the literal skill description, the intent with Hypochondria was to have an offensive "martyr". However. it should not reapply conditions that are already on the target. Since the skill has little drawbacks, as illustrated in the JR-'s description, the skill should be reworked, regardless if it is deemed broken or bugged or whatever.

romO · Sep 25, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It sounds like you never saw this run decently, either. We ran it in tombs once over the weekend. God knows I rarely do tombs, but I was bored and it sounded like fun..

No, actually, you're right. The only place that I had seen it run was in random arena and it seemed like the same old solo frag spike that I was used to. I smiled and shrugged it off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Six pure Healing or Prot Monks, one Virulence/Frag Mesmer, one spirit Ranger with Apply and Savage shot. We could perform perfect uninfusable spikes.

The power behind it is that those six monks just run a single spell, Hypochondria, with a 5 energy cost, 1 second cast time, 10 second cool down. It requires no spec, and is conveniently in a Mesmer skill. As such you basicly have six spikers who can do absolutely anything you want them to between spikes, at the cost of one skill slot and their secondary profession.

Wow, do I think in the box or what? I was so used to fragility simply triggering on conditions, and remembering what used to happen when you tried to use other skills such as enfeeble in the spike (nothing, or simply a slower spike), that I didn't even think of that. I guess I would have to see it in action, but right now it kind of sounds like sb/ri spike, but cleaner and with less covers. That said, it still takes a while to start the spike due to the application of the hexes, so is quick hex removal not viable? It is the same mesmer casting the hexes and he has to deal with slow cast times and aftercast. Realistically, with two monks, they should be able to grab the cover hex as well as the fragility once they see them applied in order to give the spike a window of a fraction of a second to activate. Now that's all in theory, and once again, I didn't see it performed in any large-scale game, so please enlighten me as to what people have been doing to stop the removal of the hexes. Another cover from the same mesmer is not viable due to cast time, and you already mentioned the other professions in the build as monks or additional conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Not really. Frag/Hypo is more powerful because it re-applies the whole stack of conditions, each doing damage on removal and re-application. Where SB/RI reapplied one hex with each new hex added to the stack, doing 62 damage per hex applied. Hypo does twice the damage with similar specs and 3 conditions. If you can get a couple more conditions to stick or another /Me to pack Hypo then you're just multiplying your damage.

I was talking about the mechanics of the skill, not its power. The only reason that hypochondria is more powerful is because the skill description of fragility lets it deal double damage per condition while the description of soul barbs only says that it will trigger once per hex. Same mechanic, different magnitude.

Ruricu · Sep 25, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

First off, phantom/drain delusions > images/accumulated due to speed and energy... but...
For all those ranting about Hypochondria being bugged; it isn't. It was fully intended to make the target lose all conditions and then regain them, in an attempt to make fevered dreams more popular. However, the effect of the skill in conjunction with Fragility may have been overlooked. We'll just have to see what Izzy thinks about it on October 24.

LoyalSoldier · Sep 25, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

I just want to know how the hell could this be overlooked for crying out loud. Why is it everyone and their mother can see this skill's effects and yet A.Net completely missed it.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Sep 26, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

I just want to know how the hell could this be overlooked for crying out loud. Why is it everyone and their mother can see this skill's effects and yet A.Net completely missed it.

Anet has had other things to do this weekend.

Riotgear · Sep 26, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

That said, it still takes a while to start the spike due to the application of the hexes, so is quick hex removal not viable?

You only need one hex, Fragility. You don't NEED to start the spike off of the deep wound, you can use any condition. You could do something like cast Frag and then cover it with Phantom Pain so it causes DW the instant it's removed, then just dump ANY condition on them so you can use virulence.

EDIT -- As for "not broken", consider that Epidemic, with its remarkably similar description, does not have this behavior.

romO · Sep 26, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

You only need one hex, Fragility. You don't NEED to start the spike off of the deep wound, you can use any condition. You could do something like cast Frag and then cover it with Phantom Pain so it causes DW the instant it's removed, then just dump ANY condition on them so you can use virulence.

Thanks for making my point.

Nightsear · Sep 26, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

It was fun while it lasted, that's all I can say. If it stays untouched then, that would be interesting.

Apok Omen · Sep 26, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Hypochondria is not bugged. The description reads that it takes off all of the conditions of foes adjacent to target foe and putting it on the target. Thats what it is doing. Is the spike broken? No, as a simple heal would make it useless.

If anything, it made Frag spike more popular. Valandor ran it but didn't have any trouble as it was used in an Adrenaline spike. This spike was not intended to be used 1v1. GW was based on teamwork, and Valandor used it in teamwork. Again, any simgle heal will throw off the whole spike. However, using Draw Conditions isn't smart, as it will trigger Frag once more. Even RC finishes off the target.

LoyalSoldier · Sep 26, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

Anet has had other things to do this weekend.

I doubt the skill has been around for just one weekend. The code for it was writen a long time ago.

Quote:

Hypochondria is not bugged. The description reads that it takes off all of the conditions of foes adjacent to target foe and putting it on the target. Thats what it is doing. Is the spike broken? No, as a simple heal would make it useless.

If anything, it made Frag spike more popular. Valandor ran it but didn't have any trouble as it was used in an Adrenaline spike. This spike was not intended to be used 1v1. GW was based on teamwork, and Valandor used it in teamwork. Again, any simgle heal will throw off the whole spike. However, using Draw Conditions isn't smart, as it will trigger Frag once more. Even RC finishes off the target.

Though it does take conditions already on the foe and reapplies them. That part I find stupid. Now if you loaded everyone else up with conditions then I might see it differently.

I think they nerfed it anyways.

Riotgear · Sep 26, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Hypochondria is not bugged. The description reads that it takes off all of the conditions of foes adjacent to target foe and putting it on the target. Thats what it is doing.

Fragility causes damage when a foe "suffers or recovers from a new condition." In the context of someone getting a condition "transferred" to themself, they certainly aren't recovering from them, and they certainly aren't new.

If precision of game mechanics is more important to you than common sense, then you can explain why Epidemic, another skill with the same described effect, does not do this.

Zui · Sep 26, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Description of Hypochondria:
All conditions on foes in the area of the target foe are transferred to that foe.

Description of Epidemic:
Transfer all negative Conditions and their remaining durations from target foe to all foes adjacent to your target.

Hypochondria has this effect. Epidemic does not. Same wording, different effect. Perhaps more importantly, Fragility causes damage when a foe suffers or recovers from a new condition. They certainly aren't recovering from them, and they certainly aren't new. It's bugged.

One could argue that they're simply being transfered, and it's not a bug.

LoyalSoldier · Sep 26, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

One could argue that they're simply being transfered, and it's not a bug.

If it wasn't, the skill was still overpowered because of the spamible nature.

Bugeater · Sep 26, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

It's a bug, it's not a bug, it's like this skill, it's like that skill, it does just what it says...does anyone really care? The fact is it's broken. Whether it's broken because it's a bug or broken because it's impact was unforseen doesn't really matter. Put it in the pile with Ether Renewal, Spirit Spamming and a handful of other skills/tactics that unbalanced the game because they were broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Hypochondria is not bugged. The description reads that it takes off all of the conditions of foes adjacent to target foe and putting it on the target. Thats what it is doing. Is the spike broken? No, as a simple heal would make it useless.

A simple heal? Do you understand how the spike works? The illusion Me/N puts on Frag while the apply ranger is poisoning the target, the illusion Me/N then casts Virulence at the same time the 6 monks on the team are casting Hypo and the Ranger types "/rank". Just about 1 second after the target initially gets Frag put on him, he gets hit with 21(max Frag)*4(four conditions)*6(six casts of Hypo)*2(remove and re-apply) damage. A simple heal will do nothing when the target instantly gets hit with over 1000 damage. I can only assume you mean a de-hex or de-condition since healing is utterly useless against a perfect spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

it still takes a while to start the spike due to the application of the hexes, so is quick hex removal not viable? It is the same mesmer casting the hexes and he has to deal with slow cast times and aftercast. Realistically, with two monks, they should be able to grab the cover hex as well as the fragility once they see them applied in order to give the spike a window of a fraction of a second to activate.

You're right, if Frag is removed you have no spike. But you monks are going to have to be pretty fast against a decent spike team to get it removed. Shielding Hands would kill the spike, too but with twice the recharge of the spike you're only stopping half the spikes.

Shutting down the Me/N is the best option in my opinion.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 26, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Shutting down the Me/N is the best option in my opinion.

Indeed, and that's why I don't think the spike needs too big a hit in 8v8. It would become a lot more balanced overall if Hypochondria required a large attribute investment so you couldn't use it easily on monks. Bloodspike also has a lot of healing characters, but it's by no means impossible to beat. I think 8-man frag spike would just become another nasty spike build that people would run to steamroll unprepared teams, like SB/RI. Another decent nerf would be making Frag a 2s cast.

I'm a lot more worried about the effects of Hypochondria as a skirmish skill than as a spike. It has a lot of extremely attractive elements on a base ganker, and might prove to be overpowered in that setting.